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my first EMT experience changed

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everything I thought about the world the

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Joe Rogan podcast you listen to is

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hugely popular Tilly alien realm filled

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with alien intelligences who commute and

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of course again the skeptics say oh it's

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all just made up in your brain but we

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don't know that this interview with

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Graham Hancock drew millions of

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listeners it's quite a statement

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regarding how far our culture has come

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in trying to understand the relationship

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between psychedelics and consciousness

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it's good you to spiral a plateau 7:04

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comin at you but this next clue maybe

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even one of my videos there was a

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comment left asking me if I can make a

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video explaining why I don't use and day

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organs and even longer

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it's from spiral of nine oh seven oh

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four and was published for the benefit

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of his 842 subscribers it's titled why I

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no longer use engage and while the

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numbers may not be as impressive as the

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Joe Rogan interview with Graham Hancock

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the thousands of trip reports available

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on YouTube maybe an even more

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significant statement about what's going

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on with entheogen z' in our culture but

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what does it all mean and what are we

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supposed to do Graham can we use changes

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in consciousness to understand the

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majestic complexity of the universe in

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which we live and I think the answer is

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definitely yes and spiral of no no 704

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people need to understand that the mind

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is a very fragile thing it can be bent

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in so many strange directions and some

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people mind can't be bent as much as

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others

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and remain intact stick around for a

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show on entheogens in my interview with

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Katie McKay

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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coming up next on skeptical

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[Music]

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today we welcome coding a County -

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skeptic Oh Cody is the creator and

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co-host of the silly rabbits podcast

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silly rabbits is kind of a play on the

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idea of psilocybin which is one of the

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things that Cody is very interested in

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talking about in bringing to people on

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his very interesting and relatively new

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podcast so I ran across Cody he

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connected with me a couple months ago

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about this recent paper that he's

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published about the possible connection

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between Joseph Smith the founder of the

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Mormon Church and psychedelics and that

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led to a very interesting dialogue

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between us about this whole topic of

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entheogens which we've talked about

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before on sceptical but have never

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really pulled apart I feel like in true

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skeptical fashion so that's what I asked

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Cody if he was up for and you said yes

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didn't you yeah I'm excited that's

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what's diving yeah let's do it it's

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really interesting so let's start by I

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gave people just a very brief sketch of

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your bio and your introduction and what

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you're doing but tell us more about

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what's going on with silly rabbits

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podcast and what you're doing with some

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of your other research and work well my

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wife and I started silly rabbits podcast

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a couple months ago we both have found a

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psychedelic use to be of great benefit

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to both of us and so we kind of study it

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as a side hobby and wanted to share some

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of that knowledge with the rest of the

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world and that's just kind of the reason

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why we did that in regards to the the

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paper I co-authored with my research

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partner Bryce blank and agel he does the

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the naked Mormonism podcast I started

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listening to his podcast a little over a

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year ago and as I was listening I

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started noticing things as he went

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through the

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story and I contacted him and we just

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started going back and forth and started

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writing a paper and just recently

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presented at the Sunstone symposium in

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Utah upon that and you guys I have to

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just tell people if they check out your

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podcast

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it isn't like your usual kind of psycho

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not trippy hey man I mean it's like

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really intellectual and academic and you

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get all these really smart people on

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there with a lot of references to

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academic papers and research so that's

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part of the angle that you're bringing

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to it right Cody yeah thank you um you

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know an avid reader as is my wife and

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there's a lot of misinformation in the

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community right now I think people tend

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to latch on to information that is falls

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in line with their worldview and part of

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the reason why we started the

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broadcaster's just just kind of helped

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sort out the the bad information from

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the good information and just how people

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move forward responsibly wow that sounds

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like a real skeptic cocon ethos I love

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it so here's what I thought we do

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speaking of kind of skeptical ethos

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process I have this process that I've

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kind of formalized over the years but

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really kind of crystallized it into a

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formula in the last few episodes and

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it's three steps follow the data look

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for the conspiratorial angle and in this

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case is we had some really interesting

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stuff there and then third find the deep

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spirituality and I think all three of

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those are going to fit in perfectly with

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this topic of entheogens and

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psychedelics so maybe a place to start

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is let's make sure that our definitions

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are clear tell me what you think we're

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talking about when we talk about

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psychedelics and when we talk about

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entheogen uh it definitely gets

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problematic for an experience that's so

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ineffable to try and put it into small

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mouth noises but psychedelics

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as we kind of understand them today I

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think is generally associated with drug

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use in the 1960s and the whole hippie

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movement and whatnot

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the term entheogen was coined in I think

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79 by ruck and Carl ruck and Jonathan

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OTT and I think Hoffman as well to kind

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of distinguish a different form of

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substance use that just the delineated

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from drug use I think the biggest the

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biggest thing is in tension when it

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comes to the difference between

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psychedelics and antigen use this this

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intent to elicit an experience with the

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divine or some type of mystical

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spiritual experience excellent

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Minh let me nail that down further I

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think I'm total agreement with you I'm

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gonna share with folks the two

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definitions that pop up if you just

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google those terms the first for

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psychedelics right to your point

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relating to drugs that produce

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hallucinations and apparent expansion of

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consciousness interesting there I'm

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going to pull that word out of there in

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a second apparent cause I think is

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really important and second within

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thien's a chemical substance typically

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of plant origin that is ingested to

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produce a non-ordinary state of

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consciousness for religious or spiritual

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purposes again exactly to your point

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about intent but what I wanted to

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highlight and I thought we might have an

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interesting time discussing is that word

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apparent because I think it's really

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easy to gloss over what that really is

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driving at and I have a clip I want to

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play that I think will maybe get us

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there this is from a YouTube video

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promoting the interdisciplinary

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conference on psychedelic research so

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this is serious research by academics

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neuroscientists psychologists

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psychiatrists all sorts of people like

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that who are doing this is a relatively

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new thing over the last few years and

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it's a very exciting thing for some

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people and that is

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real university researchers are

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exploring psychedelics and entheogen

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zine though that's in the title but I

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want to play for you this recording and

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then we'll we'll talk about it here goes

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psychedelic drug psilocybin seems to

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break down a particular high-level

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system in the brain which is related to

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our sense of self and there seems to be

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something potentially useful

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therapeutically

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and that's breaking away of your sense

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of self if these chemicals can be

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harnessed in a way to improve those

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lives of those patients then we owe it

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to them to study it ok so right off the

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bat let me just toss it to you what did

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you get out of that what what kind of

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sparked your interest in in that I'm a

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bit about responsible use leading to

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beneficial changes in one's life however

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you want to interpret that I think is

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what interests me the most that's

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actually kind of how I got into this I

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suffered from chronic migraines as a kid

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and I did I just by happenstance I did a

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report on LSD in high school and it said

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I remember it saying something about

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Hoffmann looking for a cure for

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migraines or cluster headaches and

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that's how he kind of stumbled upon

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these these are bad alkaloids and so

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when I was offered LSD at 19 I wasn't

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really interested in the the hallucinate

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the hallucinations or the psychedelic

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experience I was more interested in

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alleviating my migraine symptoms and two

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things happened one I had a full-blown

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mystical experience and having grown up

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in a very religious household that was

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something I had never ever come across

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and second I I went for months for the

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first time in my life without having a

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migraine and I did not do it in the best

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or most responsible setting and it was

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difficult at times but it had a major

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impact on my

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life had certainly changed it for the

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better and I think it I also it comes to

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mind the the study John Hopkins did

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where they did a broad spectrum analysis

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of trip reports and even people who

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reported bad trips so to speak something

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like eighty five eighty six percent of

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them came away with some type of

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beneficial outlook on the experience

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itself even though it was difficult cool

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so we should talk about that because

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there's definitely some we can't put in

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any other way there's some medical

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benefits that we can directly tie like

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we do in medicine to you know PTSD

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depression like you said migraines

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there's other things and that's

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definitely emerging from the research

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right that's your understanding yeah and

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like you said earlier this is really new

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research I mean they're pretty legit

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people doing the research there's John

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Hopkins the people at maps that the

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Beckley foundation there's a few in

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Switzerland in Germany as well I think

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the University of Jerusalem does this

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too but it is brand new the the social

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taboo on drugs and psychedelics in

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particular has only recently begun to

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change

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I think Strassman had a lot to do with

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that and Rick Doblin in particular but

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it's it's pretty new like you said we're

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only scratching the surface so let me

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twist things a little bit on the access

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here and talk about that definition I

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had before and the word I was picking

275
00:13:08,180 --> 00:13:06,120
out this apparent expansion of

276
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,190
consciousness because one thing I picked

277
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:10,079
up on in that quote and I agree with all

278
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:11,610
the great stuff that they're doing and

279
00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:14,399
heck I mean the field was totally

280
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:16,889
abandoned for the longest time so it's

281
00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:20,399
awesome that researchers are coming in

282
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:23,550
and availing themselves to these

283
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:26,010
medicines these substances and seeing

284
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:27,420
what they do because we do have so many

285
00:13:32,569 --> 00:13:29,850
reports that they can be beneficial at

286
00:13:36,350 --> 00:13:32,579
the same time I do hesitate a little bit

287
00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:36,360
at the kind of underlying philosophical

288
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:39,720
kind of brain based approach that

289
00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:41,130
they're taking from one of the very

290
00:13:44,910 --> 00:13:42,220
first

291
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:44,920
things that the guy says in that clip I

292
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:46,720
played is hey it does appear that

293
00:13:51,510 --> 00:13:49,330
psilocybin is breaking through the brain

294
00:13:54,810 --> 00:13:51,520
kind of structure and this and that so

295
00:13:58,740 --> 00:13:54,820
again they are going to be packing this

296
00:14:02,670 --> 00:13:58,750
back into the current neurological model

297
00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:02,680
that consciousness is brain based is

298
00:14:09,180 --> 00:14:06,460
that okay are there limits to that what

299
00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:09,190
might those limits be what are your

300
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:11,950
thoughts on that I think psychedelics

301
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:14,320
are a great way of showing us what we

302
00:14:20,220 --> 00:14:17,770
don't know and when it comes to the

303
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:20,230
materialistic kind of brain based model

304
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:22,210
of consciousness I think this is a nice

305
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:24,570
bridge for the non materialists or the

306
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:27,730
people that are uncomfortable with the

307
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:31,270
materialistic model I think it allows

308
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:33,910
for an empirical view at consciousness

309
00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:36,610
or the nature of consciousness it allows

310
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:40,630
for a repeatable experience but it is

311
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:42,610
there is still this kind of mystical

312
00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:45,490
ineffable quality that people have a

313
00:14:49,260 --> 00:14:47,380
really hard time articulating until

314
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:49,270
they've had the experience themselves so

315
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:51,730
a lot like near-death experience I know

316
00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:53,350
you you do a lot of research in that

317
00:14:59,580 --> 00:14:58,090
field as well right so okay I'll tell

318
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,590
you what let me just go forward with

319
00:15:03,330 --> 00:15:01,600
this and it'll further draw maybe out

320
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:03,340
this discussion we're having because you

321
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:06,610
mentioned a second ago Strassmann and

322
00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:09,310
you're referring of course to DMT

323
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:11,560
researcher the first person we should

324
00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:14,710
say that with over a 30-year period

325
00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:17,320
there's like this total blackout by the

326
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:21,070
FDA and the government that no one is to

327
00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:23,440
look at these substances test these

328
00:15:27,810 --> 00:15:25,870
substances the doctors researchers no

329
00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:27,820
one's to touch this and then they give

330
00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:30,300
this guy at the University of New Mexico

331
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:33,550
physician psychiatrist dr. Rick

332
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:37,440
Strassman they give him permission to

333
00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:41,250
use DMT which is a very interesting

334
00:15:46,890 --> 00:15:43,480
substance a lot of people know it

335
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:46,900
through ayahuasca that but very

336
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:50,680
fashionable kind of go to Peru and have

337
00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:52,990
your psycho notic kind of experience

338
00:15:56,140 --> 00:15:55,060
with ayahuasca a kind of trip but

339
00:15:59,019 --> 00:15:56,150
anyways they isolate

340
00:16:01,480 --> 00:15:59,029
the the compound the active compound in

341
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:01,490
that which is DMT of course you know all

342
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:03,110
this I'm just saying this for the

343
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:04,970
benefit of listening don't

344
00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:08,930
and then ridic Strassman looks at this

345
00:16:14,890 --> 00:16:12,020
in the lab with volunteers and I want to

346
00:16:18,490 --> 00:16:14,900
play for folks from my interview with

347
00:16:22,329 --> 00:16:18,500
Rick what he said about it ho about the

348
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:22,339
experiments the most interesting results

349
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:25,730
were that high doses of DMT seemed to

350
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:27,650
allow the consciousness of our

351
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:30,880
volunteers to enter an out-of-body

352
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:34,310
freestanding independent realm of

353
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:37,970
existence inhabited by beings of light

354
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:40,490
who oftentimes were expecting the

355
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:44,110
volunteers and with whom the volunteers

356
00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:46,910
interacted okay so correct finding

357
00:16:49,810 --> 00:16:48,529
that's wrong and just also if you want

358
00:16:51,850 --> 00:16:49,820
to elaborate on that because that's

359
00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:51,860
quite a quite a lot for people to kind

360
00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:54,230
of wrap their minds on around right from

361
00:16:57,970 --> 00:16:56,360
the beginning right right well that's

362
00:17:03,040 --> 00:16:57,980
pretty much the case you know that's

363
00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:03,050
true everything you said everything I

364
00:17:09,790 --> 00:17:05,569
said because I was quoting him I wasn't

365
00:17:11,740 --> 00:17:09,800
making that up is true I mean compare

366
00:17:14,980 --> 00:17:11,750
that for a minute Cody you did a nice

367
00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:14,990
job of kind of holding up the current

368
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:17,120
research and how it might be a bridge

369
00:17:20,650 --> 00:17:19,370
from the material science to the

370
00:17:23,949 --> 00:17:20,660
immaterial science

371
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:23,959
don't we have to kind of do more than a

372
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:28,250
bridge we need a huge leap to get over

373
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:32,780
the gap between what strassman is laying

374
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:35,840
out in terms of the topology of this

375
00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:38,809
consciousness field versus where we are

376
00:17:44,860 --> 00:17:42,230
in science don't we oh for sure

377
00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:44,870
there definitely an epistemological

378
00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:48,620
shift has to take place that a social

379
00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:51,980
mind set needs to be completely changed

380
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:55,100
and how we look at drugs and the nature

381
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:58,730
of consciousness and just it's reality

382
00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:01,280
in general I guess what I was meaning to

383
00:18:04,570 --> 00:18:03,200
say when it comes to the bridge is this

384
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:04,580
might be a good way to get the

385
00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:06,890
materialists on our side so to speak

386
00:18:12,730 --> 00:18:09,950
because this experience is so repeatable

387
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:12,740
and it can be offered to people at a

388
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:15,170
statistically reliable rate like so like

389
00:18:20,830 --> 00:18:17,510
you can if you dial in dose set and

390
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:20,840
setting you can elicit a very profound

391
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:23,570
mystical experience in people's it's

392
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:26,170
something like 95 or percent or higher

393
00:18:35,860 --> 00:18:31,910
and so I think offering this experience

394
00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:35,870
in a socially and kind of medically

395
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:40,100
responsible way is is maybe how we we

396
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,890
get the materialist to to maybe see what

397
00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:44,960
it is they don't know about reality and

398
00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:47,180
consciousness and you know but even in

399
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:48,860
the process when we talk about it in

400
00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:50,510
that way I think a lot of people are

401
00:18:54,850 --> 00:18:52,940
gonna feel like they have one foot on

402
00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:54,860
the deck and one foot in the boat in

403
00:19:01,120 --> 00:18:57,340
terms of now we're trying to apply very

404
00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:01,130
materialistic sounding processes and

405
00:19:07,990 --> 00:19:03,700
controls and those kind of things to

406
00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:08,000
something that by Rick's definition and

407
00:19:13,870 --> 00:19:11,320
by the definition of many experiencers

408
00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:13,880
completely doesn't fit within that

409
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:16,190
paradigm rights or say okay take this

410
00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:18,530
dose in this setting and you will

411
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:20,750
achieve this and then we have a bunch of

412
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:23,810
people who are kind of on the other side

413
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:26,510
of the consciousness issue and saying as

414
00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:29,090
Rick did hey there's this whole other

415
00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:31,640
realm that we don't understand we don't

416
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:34,580
understand therefore what this realm is

417
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:36,170
we don't understand you mentioned a

418
00:19:41,890 --> 00:19:39,050
minute ago what our reality really is

419
00:19:44,410 --> 00:19:41,900
anymore so doesn't that lead to some

420
00:19:47,230 --> 00:19:44,420
fundamental questions about you know

421
00:19:50,340 --> 00:19:47,240
what's 95 percent what does that mean

422
00:19:53,290 --> 00:19:50,350
what is you know 7 grams or five

423
00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:53,300
micrograms whatever the substance or the

424
00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:55,460
what does any of that mean and we'll

425
00:19:59,860 --> 00:19:57,890
talk about that I think later when we

426
00:20:02,560 --> 00:19:59,870
talk about the deep spirituality but

427
00:20:04,990 --> 00:20:02,570
let's stay ground it in the kind of

428
00:20:07,750 --> 00:20:05,000
material medical world for a minute and

429
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:07,760
you get what I'm talking about in terms

430
00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:11,440
of this kind of way we struggle with

431
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:14,240
kind of back door materialism when we're

432
00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:16,730
talking about expanded consciousness I

433
00:20:21,730 --> 00:20:19,550
do think it is hard to science certain

434
00:20:23,539 --> 00:20:21,740
aspects of this for sure but like I said

435
00:20:26,479 --> 00:20:23,549
when I my first experience I didn't

436
00:20:29,299 --> 00:20:26,489
any guidelines I didn't I really even

437
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:29,309
have any intent of having any kind of

438
00:20:33,229 --> 00:20:30,809
mystical experience that just happened

439
00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:33,239
on its own I think of like

440
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:36,809
neuroscientists who talk about our our

441
00:20:40,190 --> 00:20:38,610
reality just being one massive

442
00:20:42,889 --> 00:20:40,200
hallucination or our perception of

443
00:20:44,629 --> 00:20:42,899
reality being a hallucination and that

444
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:44,639
these these chemicals just act as like

445
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:47,460
filtering mechanisms or inhibiting these

446
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:49,679
filtering mechanisms in our brain so I

447
00:20:54,379 --> 00:20:52,080
guess the question would be does it

448
00:20:57,139 --> 00:20:54,389
matter more or less if we just apply

449
00:20:59,119 --> 00:20:57,149
that that model you know and you have

450
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,129
some experience can you just go off the

451
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:01,200
experience does it matter if we

452
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:03,480
understand the mechanics for how it

453
00:21:07,729 --> 00:21:05,850
works I mean one thing I see here is

454
00:21:10,430 --> 00:21:07,739
we're kind of doing a shutup and

455
00:21:12,649 --> 00:21:10,440
calculate version which I always like to

456
00:21:14,419 --> 00:21:12,659
say you know in quantum physics they ran

457
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:14,429
into the philosophical dilemma of what

458
00:21:19,639 --> 00:21:17,730
does this mean and they couldn't handle

459
00:21:22,129 --> 00:21:19,649
the philosophical questions associated

460
00:21:24,289 --> 00:21:22,139
with quantum physics so they said well

461
00:21:25,940 --> 00:21:24,299
screw it just shut up and calculate and

462
00:21:27,619 --> 00:21:25,950
let's make all this cool stuff which

463
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:27,629
they made and that's why we have cell

464
00:21:32,869 --> 00:21:30,210
phones and computers today well are we

465
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:32,879
doing the same thing with psychedelics

466
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:35,369
and theagenes whereas I okay well shut

467
00:21:40,249 --> 00:21:37,529
up and calculate take this dose like

468
00:21:42,769 --> 00:21:40,259
this and just see what happens and

469
00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:42,779
forget about the philosophical

470
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:46,769
implications of what that means for the

471
00:21:53,269 --> 00:21:50,330
larger question of what the heck is

472
00:21:56,269 --> 00:21:53,279
consciousness what is our relationship

473
00:21:58,190 --> 00:21:56,279
to this consciousness field or whatever

474
00:22:00,080 --> 00:21:58,200
we want to call it I think there's a

475
00:22:02,419 --> 00:22:00,090
definite move in the psychedelic

476
00:22:05,659 --> 00:22:02,429
research field to try and legitimize

477
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:05,669
this socially and the way they're doing

478
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:08,580
that is through science and kind of

479
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:10,169
approaching this from a clinical aspect

480
00:22:13,249 --> 00:22:12,570
I'm personally of the opinion it doesn't

481
00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:13,259
really matter

482
00:22:17,259 --> 00:22:15,389
I don't I think we're too early in the

483
00:22:21,379 --> 00:22:17,269
research to be able to come to any

484
00:22:22,909 --> 00:22:21,389
conclusion about what it is and what

485
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:22,919
matters to me is that just the

486
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:24,470
experience you can have the experience

487
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:27,600
is it real is it just you know chemicals

488
00:22:33,859 --> 00:22:30,559
in your brain I really don't care I

489
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:33,869
spent my entire life in a religious

490
00:22:37,019 --> 00:22:35,490
household like I said I was I spent a

491
00:22:39,899 --> 00:22:37,029
large portion of my life actually

492
00:22:42,209 --> 00:22:39,909
genuinely searching for a mystical

493
00:22:42,929 --> 00:22:42,219
experience and when I kind of stumbled

494
00:22:49,549 --> 00:22:42,939
upon it

495
00:22:52,589 --> 00:22:49,559
with LSD it it was so profoundly

496
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:52,599
indescribable that when I came out of it

497
00:22:55,979 --> 00:22:54,129
I just I didn't really care if it was

498
00:22:57,269 --> 00:22:55,989
real or not the fact is I had it and the

499
00:22:59,279 --> 00:22:57,279
fact is I could have it again

500
00:23:01,499 --> 00:22:59,289
I don't know if that helps answer your

501
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:01,509
question I think it does like that's

502
00:23:05,429 --> 00:23:02,289
very good

503
00:23:08,399 --> 00:23:05,439
so without - let's move on to the second

504
00:23:11,729 --> 00:23:08,409
part of my little process here and that

505
00:23:15,449 --> 00:23:11,739
is as I like to say look for the

506
00:23:17,129 --> 00:23:15,459
conspiracy and when we for some folks

507
00:23:22,229 --> 00:23:17,139
they may not think there's much there

508
00:23:24,479 --> 00:23:22,239
but man there is a lot there so let me

509
00:23:27,539 --> 00:23:24,489
start with this I don't know what you

510
00:23:29,309 --> 00:23:27,549
know or what you what your opinion is on

511
00:23:32,369 --> 00:23:29,319
this so that's gonna be kind of fun to

512
00:23:36,109 --> 00:23:32,379
explore it together Cody tell me what

513
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:36,119
you know about MKULTRA honestly not much

514
00:23:42,569 --> 00:23:39,609
I know it's a government mind-control

515
00:23:45,719 --> 00:23:42,579
program that was instituted I think in

516
00:23:47,129 --> 00:23:45,729
that really 50s at first and there were

517
00:23:50,369 --> 00:23:47,139
different iterations of it I know there

518
00:23:54,539 --> 00:23:50,379
was a few different Ultra programs that

519
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:54,549
kind of got pushed back in the limelight

520
00:24:01,949 --> 00:23:57,279
when MKULTRA came out and they kind of

521
00:24:03,389 --> 00:24:01,959
used in Kaltura as a as a way of nothing

522
00:24:07,349 --> 00:24:03,399
going on here nothing going on we've

523
00:24:09,209 --> 00:24:07,359
taken care of the problem and I know

524
00:24:11,309 --> 00:24:09,219
there was a lot of people in the

525
00:24:13,589 --> 00:24:11,319
psychedelic community in the early days

526
00:24:17,729 --> 00:24:13,599
have been accused of being involved with

527
00:24:20,639 --> 00:24:17,739
that or helping the CIA with their

528
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:20,649
mind-control experiments I got a good

529
00:24:23,969 --> 00:24:22,809
intro and I think it also kind of

530
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:23,979
highlights a couple of points I'd like

531
00:24:28,439 --> 00:24:26,529
to talk about in terms of MKULTRA

532
00:24:32,219 --> 00:24:28,449
because the first thing that I think

533
00:24:34,619 --> 00:24:32,229
people need to know is one there's when

534
00:24:36,869 --> 00:24:34,629
you mention em Cael - right off the bat

535
00:24:39,329 --> 00:24:36,879
there's some scoffing you know all that

536
00:24:39,689 --> 00:24:39,339
conspiracy nonsense or something like

537
00:24:44,399 --> 00:24:39,699
that

538
00:24:47,459 --> 00:24:44,409
I mean MKULTRA is is real I mean I'll

539
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:47,469
give you a quote from the US Supreme

540
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:50,559
Court no less because they were sued

541
00:24:56,009 --> 00:24:54,700
/ MKULTRA the CIA was sued and it was

542
00:25:00,720 --> 00:24:56,019
brought all the way to the Supreme Court

543
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:00,730
and the Supreme Court says what MKULTRA

544
00:25:06,269 --> 00:25:03,610
is it was okay this is from the Supreme

545
00:25:08,669 --> 00:25:06,279
Court MKULTRA was concerned with the

546
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:08,679
research and development of chemical

547
00:25:15,139 --> 00:25:11,679
biological and Radiological materials

548
00:25:19,529 --> 00:25:15,149
capable of employment in clandestine

549
00:25:22,769 --> 00:25:19,539
operations to control human behavior and

550
00:25:25,230 --> 00:25:22,779
that it goes on to again from the

551
00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:25,240
Supreme Court to talk about the extent

552
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:27,100
of it and the crimes and the horrible

553
00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:29,289
kind of things that they did and it was

554
00:25:34,499 --> 00:25:32,529
huge that's one thing I want I want to

555
00:25:37,379 --> 00:25:34,509
add and get out there in this show is

556
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:37,389
that people need to know again from the

557
00:25:44,730 --> 00:25:41,610
Supreme Court a hundred and forty nine

558
00:25:47,330 --> 00:25:44,740
sub-projects various universities all

559
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:47,340
sorts of institutions 80 institutions

560
00:25:53,159 --> 00:25:50,559
185 private researchers and that's only

561
00:25:56,820 --> 00:25:53,169
the part that they disclosed and know

562
00:26:01,379 --> 00:25:56,830
about so they were in this kind of

563
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:01,389
massive full-bore effort to understand

564
00:26:08,159 --> 00:26:06,159
and weaponize and control the human mind

565
00:26:10,019 --> 00:26:08,169
and we can talk for a minute why they

566
00:26:12,450 --> 00:26:10,029
would want to do that or whether that's

567
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:12,460
completely Orwellian or whether there

568
00:26:18,930 --> 00:26:15,070
was actually some sense to it

569
00:26:22,499 --> 00:26:18,940
but what they wind up doing is bringing

570
00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:22,509
LSD into the equation in a major way and

571
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:24,990
yeah all those early people who

572
00:26:32,850 --> 00:26:29,590
introduce and promote LSD all wind up

573
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:32,860
having all these links back to the CIA

574
00:26:38,489 --> 00:26:36,820
as do some of these other players that I

575
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:38,499
think we're going to talk about so

576
00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:41,710
before we get too deep into the woods I

577
00:26:47,159 --> 00:26:44,830
guess what I'm trying to pull out here

578
00:26:50,639 --> 00:26:47,169
and bring to people's attention and talk

579
00:26:53,899 --> 00:26:50,649
a little bit about with you is do we

580
00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:53,909
have to be concerned that these

581
00:27:00,359 --> 00:26:57,190
clandestine operations these secret

582
00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:00,369
hidden deep state operations were from

583
00:27:08,430 --> 00:27:04,060
the beginning deeply involved in a

584
00:27:11,610 --> 00:27:08,440
when at all cost effort to use these

585
00:27:15,150 --> 00:27:11,620
substances to control people does that

586
00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:15,160
concern you Oh certainly and we kind of

587
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:16,750
touched on this in the paper on

588
00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:22,210
Mormonism we were intentionally gentle

589
00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:24,190
and nice about it but there's a lot of

590
00:27:28,410 --> 00:27:26,230
evidence that Joseph Smith flat out was

591
00:27:32,460 --> 00:27:28,420
just using this too as a mind-control

592
00:27:35,730 --> 00:27:32,470
agent and was just drugging conquer his

593
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:35,740
congregation so this is Joseph Smith the

594
00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:37,810
founder of the Mormon religion give us

595
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:40,030
the date and give us maybe just a brief

596
00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:42,910
sketch of what you discovered well it's

597
00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:45,670
well known in Mormon history that Joseph

598
00:27:51,870 --> 00:27:47,860
Smith in his early teen years had a

599
00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:51,880
career as a ceremonial magician he was

600
00:27:56,850 --> 00:27:55,030
kind of running around these guys who it

601
00:27:58,670 --> 00:27:56,860
was a popular hobby to go out and middle

602
00:28:02,310 --> 00:27:58,680
of the night and treasure dig or you'd

603
00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:02,320
use like ceremonial necromantic rites to

604
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:06,220
raise treasure Guardian spirits that

605
00:28:13,860 --> 00:28:07,690
would tell you where treasures were and

606
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:13,870
whatnot and later in his career before

607
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:17,080
he starts the church there's a lot of

608
00:28:22,290 --> 00:28:19,600
evidence that his parents and he and the

609
00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:22,300
treasure diggers were using psychedelic

610
00:28:27,780 --> 00:28:24,550
plant medicines in their treasure

611
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:27,790
digging and magical rites and then later

612
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:31,020
when they started the church in 1830

613
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:35,200
Joseph Smith and the hierarchy spread

614
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:37,450
the message around and you kind of see

615
00:28:45,630 --> 00:28:41,350
this these tendrils of psychedelic use

616
00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:45,640
reach as the missionaries approach new

617
00:28:50,970 --> 00:28:48,190
areas you see evidence of psychedelics

618
00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:50,980
being used especially in Kirtland just

619
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:53,500
just a year after the church was founded

620
00:28:58,110 --> 00:28:55,930
there's a doctor in Kirtland Ohio who is

621
00:29:00,540 --> 00:28:58,120
accusing the Mormons of drugging their

622
00:29:06,090 --> 00:29:00,550
congregation in the sacrament practices

623
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:06,100
and similarly I think that this there's

624
00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:08,770
a great conjunction between like magical

625
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:14,260
or hypnotic practices or mesmerism used

626
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:17,570
with or in conjunction with psychedelics

627
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:21,170
that kind of ups the ante it just amps

628
00:29:25,870 --> 00:29:24,170
everything up to 11 and I think that's

629
00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:25,880
what the CIA was interested in they were

630
00:29:29,950 --> 00:29:28,460
trying to create the perfect spy where

631
00:29:32,890 --> 00:29:29,960
as Joseph Smith was trying to create the

632
00:29:34,660 --> 00:29:32,900
perfect parishioner I think that's a

633
00:29:36,610 --> 00:29:34,670
great lead-in in some ways but I don't

634
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:36,620
know that we can limit it to that I mean

635
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:39,440
your point is extremely well taken about

636
00:29:46,540 --> 00:29:42,890
this interleaving and overlaying of the

637
00:29:49,210 --> 00:29:46,550
occult of magic practices of mind

638
00:29:51,690 --> 00:29:49,220
control and of these substances right in

639
00:29:54,940 --> 00:29:51,700
there I mean Jack Parsons Alice T

640
00:29:58,180 --> 00:29:54,950
Aleister Crowley they're directly tied

641
00:30:00,460 --> 00:29:58,190
into the very early stages of it before

642
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:00,470
MK ULTRA because they were looking at

643
00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:02,960
this stuff way before the 50s right but

644
00:30:07,450 --> 00:30:04,940
Jack Parsons and they were both using

645
00:30:10,210 --> 00:30:07,460
psychedelics they're using whatever they

646
00:30:12,250 --> 00:30:10,220
can get their hands on they're using and

647
00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:12,260
they're not afraid of using you know

648
00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:15,800
demonology magic practices whatever and

649
00:30:22,030 --> 00:30:19,460
part of it is understandable in that

650
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:22,040
they feel that there's a threat I mean

651
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:23,600
as soon as you know this stuff is out

652
00:30:30,730 --> 00:30:27,170
there if you are a protector of our

653
00:30:33,010 --> 00:30:30,740
freedom then you have to say hey how can

654
00:30:35,050 --> 00:30:33,020
this be used against us so it's a

655
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:35,060
defensive thing at least that's how it's

656
00:30:41,050 --> 00:30:38,620
always sold to us but as we all know the

657
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:41,060
crossover between defensive and

658
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:44,330
offensive is often just a transparent

659
00:30:51,190 --> 00:30:48,530
flip of the switch but this leads into

660
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:51,200
an interesting kind of thing to pull

661
00:30:57,420 --> 00:30:55,010
apart so your Mormonism investigation I

662
00:31:01,390 --> 00:30:57,430
think ties right into this

663
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:01,400
conspiratorial mind-control let's have

664
00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:04,730
our guard up about what's really going

665
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:07,600
on when we play around with these

666
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:11,120
expanded extended consciousness realms

667
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:13,610
given that we don't really know what

668
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:15,770
these realms are and what we're getting

669
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:19,810
into do you have any concerns or

670
00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:23,270
apprehension about that yeah I'd

671
00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:25,520
actually borrow an argument from the gun

672
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:29,300
community and say that a hammer can be

673
00:31:33,790 --> 00:31:31,370
used to build a shelter for

674
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:33,800
family and it can also be used to

675
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:35,840
destroy that same shelter and kill your

676
00:31:38,350 --> 00:31:36,350
family

677
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:38,360
I just depends on how you want to use

678
00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:40,730
that tool and you have to be responsible

679
00:31:44,890 --> 00:31:42,260
you have to know how to use it and you

680
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:44,900
have to educate yourself and again

681
00:31:49,180 --> 00:31:45,890
that's kind of why we started the

682
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:49,190
podcast it's just to help people parse

683
00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:51,410
out the good info from the bad info and

684
00:31:55,510 --> 00:31:53,300
there's a lot of it out there and I

685
00:31:57,490 --> 00:31:55,520
think in order to responsibly use these

686
00:32:00,310 --> 00:31:57,500
tools we have to appreciate that they

687
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:00,320
can be used for nefarious purposes as

688
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:02,870
well as beneficial ones you were talking

689
00:32:06,010 --> 00:32:04,640
about MKULTRA there's some this gets a

690
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:06,020
little concern oriole but there's some

691
00:32:09,790 --> 00:32:08,000
evidence that Charles Manson and Timothy

692
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:09,800
McVeigh were involved in the dam Kay

693
00:32:12,610 --> 00:32:11,809
ultra experiments and maybe that's why

694
00:32:16,030 --> 00:32:12,620
they did what they did

695
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:16,040
Oh Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber was he

696
00:32:20,530 --> 00:32:18,530
it's known it's documented we just don't

697
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,540
know all the records because they're

698
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:22,880
sealed and all the rest of that but they

699
00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:25,700
were doing whatever they could and and

700
00:32:30,610 --> 00:32:29,000
then when the experiments went wrong and

701
00:32:33,130 --> 00:32:30,620
we don't even know if they went wrong or

702
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:33,140
if that's what their intent was they

703
00:32:37,870 --> 00:32:35,570
wound up with some very strange kind of

704
00:32:43,330 --> 00:32:37,880
things coming out of it and they also

705
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:43,340
seem to be kind of balancing undecided

706
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:45,830
playing both sides in terms of what

707
00:32:51,070 --> 00:32:47,809
we're talking about earlier in terms of

708
00:32:53,650 --> 00:32:51,080
the mind equals brain materialistic

709
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:53,660
consciousness is an illusion side which

710
00:33:00,250 --> 00:32:57,410
says oh we have these chemicals we can

711
00:33:03,070 --> 00:33:00,260
give them to people and our biological

712
00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:03,080
robots will act this way versus these

713
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:04,670
other people on the other side of gun

714
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:07,940
hey dude this is magic man this is

715
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:10,610
completely of a different realm and

716
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:13,370
there's these spiritual entities that

717
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:15,050
are getting involved in a way that you

718
00:33:20,410 --> 00:33:17,120
don't even understand so forget your

719
00:33:22,330 --> 00:33:20,420
biological robots so I mean this is all

720
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:22,340
I know it's a lot for people to hold in

721
00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:24,470
their head but this is the space we're

722
00:33:32,620 --> 00:33:27,740
in because this was always an ongoing

723
00:33:35,290 --> 00:33:32,630
debate even within the clandestine deep

724
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:35,300
state exploration of this that's my read

725
00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:37,370
of it well do you have any opinion on

726
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:41,030
that yeah I think like I said with the

727
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:43,550
tools it can be used for anything

728
00:33:49,510 --> 00:33:47,210
and I think of a culture like Central

729
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:49,520
America that you find it being used for

730
00:33:55,510 --> 00:33:53,450
divination for diagnosis and healing you

731
00:33:59,140 --> 00:33:55,520
find it in hunting rights and and they

732
00:34:02,380 --> 00:33:59,150
were also drugging up slaves and cutting

733
00:34:06,130 --> 00:34:02,390
their hearts out on top of pyramids you

734
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:06,140
can I think you can use these substances

735
00:34:12,609 --> 00:34:09,440
any way you really put your mind to and

736
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:12,619
because they appear to expand our

737
00:34:18,190 --> 00:34:16,159
consciousness perhaps that makes us a

738
00:34:20,379 --> 00:34:18,200
little malleable they can also be used

739
00:34:22,419 --> 00:34:20,389
as deprogramming agents I think that's

740
00:34:24,129 --> 00:34:22,429
why eventually the government kind of

741
00:34:27,490 --> 00:34:24,139
threw out there LSD experiments because

742
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:27,500
it was kind of hard to to the dial in

743
00:34:33,220 --> 00:34:31,280
which which result you would get and

744
00:34:35,139 --> 00:34:33,230
again that kind of goes to the the

745
00:34:38,379 --> 00:34:35,149
inability to really science these things

746
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:38,389
because even when you give somebody this

747
00:34:40,810 --> 00:34:40,129
dose in this setting and they have this

748
00:34:43,540 --> 00:34:40,820
intent

749
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:43,550
sometimes the trip goes sideways you

750
00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:46,879
know I think that's that's Wilson I like

751
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:47,720
how you're bringing in the

752
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:49,850
cross-cultural part because I want to

753
00:34:56,050 --> 00:34:53,090
return in a later show to this issue of

754
00:34:58,660 --> 00:34:56,060
the conspiracy in a particular the deep

755
00:35:01,120 --> 00:34:58,670
state and Kay ultra thing and I have to

756
00:35:02,859 --> 00:35:01,130
credit Joe at well who's like I have a

757
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:02,869
lot of respect for and he really turned

758
00:35:07,810 --> 00:35:05,570
me on to some of this with Lawson and

759
00:35:10,090 --> 00:35:07,820
pedrão Chand we'll talk about that later

760
00:35:11,530 --> 00:35:10,100
but I'm sorry we'll talk about that in

761
00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:11,540
another episode of skeptical because

762
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:13,820
you've really done a nice job and I'm

763
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:15,440
kind of dragged you into an area that

764
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:18,080
isn't your expertise but then again you

765
00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:20,210
kind of it it is because I like the way

766
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:22,190
you connected it to the Joseph Smith

767
00:35:26,470 --> 00:35:24,320
stuff but what you just brought on the

768
00:35:28,359 --> 00:35:26,480
table kind of brings an interesting

769
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:28,369
connection with another guy I think has

770
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:30,170
had some interesting things to say on

771
00:35:34,540 --> 00:35:32,510
that and that's Gordon white who we both

772
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:34,550
know and does the excellent moon soup

773
00:35:39,310 --> 00:35:37,010
podcast and he just had a very

774
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:39,320
interesting interview with a woman and

775
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:42,290
be a lobotomy be a Lobato there we go

776
00:35:47,260 --> 00:35:44,510
awesome and Gordon did a great interview

777
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:47,270
with her and one of the things that came

778
00:35:51,250 --> 00:35:49,310
out of that interview and it was like a

779
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:51,260
throwaway point that went in a different

780
00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:52,400
direction that I thought was so

781
00:35:56,660 --> 00:35:54,950
interesting is she goes okay I've tried

782
00:36:00,579 --> 00:35:56,670
to trace this back as far as

783
00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:00,589
I can in the kind of anthropological

784
00:36:06,049 --> 00:36:03,990
sense in terms of the use of this and it

785
00:36:09,339 --> 00:36:06,059
ties in directly to what you're saying

786
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:09,349
Cody she goes hey the first use was in

787
00:36:15,170 --> 00:36:13,140
warfare to see if our enemies were gonna

788
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:15,180
attack and how to attack them and you go

789
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:17,490
whoa wait a minute

790
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:19,530
I thought we're talking about spiritual

791
00:36:24,049 --> 00:36:21,930
you know stuff now you're saying it's

792
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:24,059
about warfare that's how you that was

793
00:36:28,010 --> 00:36:26,010
the first documented use of it that we

794
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:28,020
can pull from the record and but or

795
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:29,970
hunting or you know all this other stuff

796
00:36:37,660 --> 00:36:33,930
so again maybe we have to look at our

797
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:37,670
cultural overlay in terms of the

798
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:40,170
spirituality connection with this and

799
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:42,180
you just talk about that but maybe you

800
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:44,970
want to expound on it a little bit one

801
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:47,220
thing my wife is particularly interested

802
00:36:54,289 --> 00:36:51,690
in she's Amanda on the podcast she has a

803
00:36:56,089 --> 00:36:54,299
theory that this is the well it's not

804
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:56,099
her that she's expanding on it but that

805
00:37:01,730 --> 00:36:58,200
this is the origin of sacrament this

806
00:37:04,370 --> 00:37:01,740
practice of ingesting a a substance or

807
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:04,380
ingesting a substance that elicits this

808
00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:07,530
experience of mysticism in a religious

809
00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:11,700
setting as a particular interest but if

810
00:37:16,309 --> 00:37:14,790
you go back much earlier it's again like

811
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:16,319
you said you see it being used in

812
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:19,530
warfare and hunting some have postulated

813
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:23,010
that agriculture was actually used to

814
00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:24,960
some of these substances are highly

815
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:29,720
variable and susceptible to seasonal and

816
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:32,490
predation and different variables that

817
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:35,130
leave them either seasonally or annually

818
00:37:38,359 --> 00:37:35,910
unavailable

819
00:37:40,789 --> 00:37:38,369
kody play that out a little bit expand

820
00:37:42,490 --> 00:37:40,799
on that in very simple terms that people

821
00:37:45,859 --> 00:37:42,500
would understand because it's a profound

822
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:45,869
point that you're making about how we

823
00:37:51,319 --> 00:37:47,730
even know that these substances exist

824
00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:51,329
right well they're a lot more prevalent

825
00:37:57,530 --> 00:37:54,660
than people think I actually have datura

826
00:37:59,059 --> 00:37:57,540
growing in my yard right now it's a lot

827
00:38:02,530 --> 00:37:59,069
of these plants are what people would

828
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:02,540
think of as weeds mushrooms and

829
00:38:07,810 --> 00:38:05,450
a lot of the psychedelics are what we

830
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:07,820
think of as weeds there wildcraft plant

831
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:08,990
so you don't really have to plant them

832
00:38:15,340 --> 00:38:10,850
they just kind of travel through the air

833
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:15,350
and plant themselves but they are highly

834
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:19,240
susceptible to like insects

835
00:38:25,870 --> 00:38:23,690
environmental factors and they can say

836
00:38:28,090 --> 00:38:25,880
you have a really good mushroom spot and

837
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:28,100
just one year for whatever reason it's

838
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:30,860
too dry or the rains came too late and

839
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:33,650
it just doesn't fruit that year and so

840
00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:36,050
what I was saying about agriculture some

841
00:38:41,710 --> 00:38:38,390
people think that this agriculture was

842
00:38:43,930 --> 00:38:41,720
originally invented in order to make

843
00:38:48,190 --> 00:38:43,940
these substances more readily available

844
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,200
and that the sustaining food side of it

845
00:38:52,810 --> 00:38:50,000
was just kind of a beneficial by-product

846
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:52,820
that took over but yeah you see the

847
00:38:57,310 --> 00:38:54,530
earlier you go back the the more

848
00:38:59,740 --> 00:38:57,320
broad-spectrum the uses you see it being

849
00:39:02,260 --> 00:38:59,750
used for almost everything not just

850
00:39:04,420 --> 00:39:02,270
sacrament and mysticism and magic and

851
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:04,430
whatnot see that's really interesting

852
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:06,170
and actually you took it in a direction

853
00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:08,090
that I didn't say which is very

854
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:09,260
interesting but I thought you're going

855
00:39:12,850 --> 00:39:10,490
to take it in this other direction maybe

856
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:12,860
you want to comment on is you look at

857
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:14,990
something like ayahuasca and you say

858
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:19,610
okay the complex chemical process that's

859
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:22,970
going on in the ingestion of ayahuasca

860
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:27,050
is crazy man it's like okay you take

861
00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:29,570
this route that you have to harvest in

862
00:39:34,540 --> 00:39:32,060
this way and cook with this and combine

863
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:34,550
it with this other substance over here

864
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:36,890
in this way and if you do it just right

865
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:40,370
you get this experience and then you go

866
00:39:46,330 --> 00:39:43,280
to the shaman and you go how did you

867
00:39:48,190 --> 00:39:46,340
know to do this and he goes oh I was in

868
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:48,200
an extended consciousness realm and the

869
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:51,470
plants told me you know so that's the

870
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,850
other part when you talk about that it's

871
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:54,320
almost again the flipside of the

872
00:39:58,720 --> 00:39:55,970
agricultural thing of what you're saying

873
00:40:01,180 --> 00:39:58,730
is that hey we are embedded in this

874
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:01,190
extended consciousness realm and we pop

875
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:04,490
in and out of it and you know maybe we

876
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:07,330
need to have a different relationship to

877
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:11,150
understanding how these substances even

878
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:13,310
come into being do you have any thoughts

879
00:40:16,990 --> 00:40:15,410
on them yeah I think

880
00:40:21,029 --> 00:40:17,000
what you said earlier about kind of

881
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:21,039
tearing away our own social or or modern

882
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:24,049
viewpoints and trying to put our heads

883
00:40:30,339 --> 00:40:27,770
in the place of our ancestors and

884
00:40:32,049 --> 00:40:30,349
different cultures is really hard but

885
00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:32,059
you mentioned that the ayahuasca for

886
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:36,260
example when they say the plants told us

887
00:40:40,299 --> 00:40:38,960
and that they were in a visionary state

888
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:40,309
when they found the plants that could

889
00:40:45,579 --> 00:40:43,280
mean a lot of things to me as somebody

890
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:45,589
that I'm a permaculture designer I work

891
00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:48,890
a lot with plants and although they

892
00:40:52,690 --> 00:40:49,900
don't speak English

893
00:40:54,569 --> 00:40:52,700
plants do speak with you on a certain

894
00:40:58,569 --> 00:40:54,579
level if you can learn their language

895
00:41:00,130 --> 00:40:58,579
their color their spotting their they'll

896
00:41:03,549 --> 00:41:00,140
tell you when they need nutrients when

897
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:03,559
they need water when they when they need

898
00:41:07,450 --> 00:41:05,500
things from you their caretaker

899
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:07,460
especially anybody who's grown cannabis

900
00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:10,160
knows this plant set the plants have a

901
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:12,440
personality and they do tend to talk to

902
00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:15,650
you if you're sensitive to that and if

903
00:41:20,529 --> 00:41:18,260
you're in an open state like you would

904
00:41:24,849 --> 00:41:20,539
be under the influence of a psychedelic

905
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:24,859
and you grew up with that type of plant

906
00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:27,650
literacy I could easily see how you

907
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:29,660
would explain it like hey the plants

908
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,359
told me when when we hear that it sounds

909
00:41:40,299 --> 00:41:37,760
very mystical and very well that's

910
00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:40,309
that's really cool how did that happen

911
00:41:46,029 --> 00:41:44,420
but I think if we tear away our modern

912
00:41:48,099 --> 00:41:46,039
perception of that and just look at it

913
00:41:49,299 --> 00:41:48,109
from how they would have been these

914
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:49,309
people would have been raised in the

915
00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:51,700
forest how they would have been daily

916
00:41:56,319 --> 00:41:54,020
harvesting some of these plants for

917
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:56,329
other things it's very easy to see how

918
00:42:03,210 --> 00:41:59,119
like one day a little bit of the cap

919
00:42:06,370 --> 00:42:03,220
evine fell in the mimosa bark tea and

920
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:06,380
made something we did not expect and

921
00:42:11,650 --> 00:42:08,779
that just became a socially practiced

922
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,660
thing maybe but then again that's not

923
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:13,839
what's draftsmen is telling us

924
00:42:19,059 --> 00:42:16,130
Strassmann is telling us there's this

925
00:42:22,779 --> 00:42:19,069
freestanding realm and these entities

926
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:22,789
are waiting there for us and saying glad

927
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:25,490
you're here what took you so long and

928
00:42:28,780 --> 00:42:28,010
the shamanic experience is telling us

929
00:42:35,110 --> 00:42:28,790
that

930
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:35,120
consistently reported some of them at

931
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:36,530
least consistently reported

932
00:42:41,830 --> 00:42:39,050
cross-culturally are on the other side

933
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:41,840
and are imparting this exact kind of

934
00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:44,510
information take this plant take it in

935
00:42:48,730 --> 00:42:46,700
the spring when it looks like this the

936
00:42:51,610 --> 00:42:48,740
the shamans say they walked me through

937
00:42:53,620 --> 00:42:51,620
the forest and said take this plant when

938
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:53,630
the leaves look like this and combine it

939
00:42:59,110 --> 00:42:56,810
with this so I mean maybe what you're

940
00:43:01,960 --> 00:42:59,120
saying but maybe the other two we don't

941
00:43:03,070 --> 00:43:01,970
know yeah and I won't discredit that

942
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:03,080
entirely like that

943
00:43:09,310 --> 00:43:06,650
I totally I'm open to the idea that it

944
00:43:11,410 --> 00:43:09,320
could be completely unexplainable from a

945
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:11,420
materialistic standpoint I just kind of

946
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:14,510
tend to I tend to kind of leap for that

947
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:16,610
explanation just to keep the

948
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:18,770
conversation going but yeah I think

949
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,440
that's totally plausible as well okay

950
00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:22,880
what let's move on because we've already

951
00:43:27,070 --> 00:43:24,590
kind of dipped into this but I want to

952
00:43:30,460 --> 00:43:27,080
kind of formalize the discussion of the

953
00:43:33,460 --> 00:43:30,470
deep spirituality of entheogens it's

954
00:43:35,470 --> 00:43:33,470
implied in the definition as we as we

955
00:43:37,810 --> 00:43:35,480
said I mean that's the distinction

956
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:37,820
people are making between psychedelics

957
00:43:44,530 --> 00:43:41,570
and Athiya jhin's is the intent purpose

958
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:44,540
of the use for entheogens it's to expand

959
00:43:52,930 --> 00:43:49,970
our spirituality and let's look at what

960
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:52,940
we understand that to be maybe let me

961
00:43:57,730 --> 00:43:55,250
just toss it back to you and right off

962
00:44:01,860 --> 00:43:57,740
the bat get your ideas or your thoughts

963
00:44:04,770 --> 00:44:01,870
in terms of how this connects with

964
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:04,780
spirituality your spirituality or a

965
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:07,970
larger spirituality if you will I think

966
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:10,480
this might go back to the consciousness

967
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:14,390
discussion and kind of how the

968
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:15,890
materialistic model just doesn't really

969
00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:18,650
fit one thing I find really interesting

970
00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:22,990
is they cross culturally and across time

971
00:44:29,170 --> 00:44:26,270
people ingesting certain substances will

972
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:29,180
experience kind of the plant guardian if

973
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:31,070
you will and like the the being that

974
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:34,490
resides in that plant or sometimes it's

975
00:44:38,530 --> 00:44:37,040
just a vehicle to the other side but

976
00:44:41,730 --> 00:44:38,540
there are there does seem to be these

977
00:44:44,370 --> 00:44:41,740
archetypal beings that are described

978
00:44:46,410 --> 00:44:44,380
however you perceive them I think when

979
00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:46,420
you get a few people in a room together

980
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:48,460
who have had an experience you'll find

981
00:44:55,099 --> 00:44:51,250
it's it's fun to watch them piece

982
00:44:59,010 --> 00:44:55,109
together how they viewed the same people

983
00:45:01,980 --> 00:44:59,020
I've heard I've heard a lady who

984
00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:01,990
described her mushroom trip as

985
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:04,750
frustrating because this giant elephant

986
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:07,390
man with one tusks just kept staring at

987
00:45:11,609 --> 00:45:08,710
her the whole time and it was really

988
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:11,619
annoying and she had no idea who Ganesh

989
00:45:15,930 --> 00:45:14,470
was but anybody in the room who came

990
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:15,940
from maybe a Hindu background could have

991
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:19,990
pointed that out pretty quickly I think

992
00:45:23,910 --> 00:45:21,760
that's a really interesting thing that

993
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:23,920
says a lot about consciousness and just

994
00:45:30,180 --> 00:45:26,609
how little we know about what's going on

995
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:30,190
is that we can all kind of see these

996
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:32,290
archetypes on the other side when we're

997
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:35,440
under the influence and I'd also like to

998
00:45:39,630 --> 00:45:37,510
point out that not everybody has to use

999
00:45:41,490 --> 00:45:39,640
these there are some people that seem to

1000
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:41,500
just kind of endogenously be able to

1001
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:44,560
elicit this individually when I talk

1002
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:46,330
about the statistical reliability I'm

1003
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:49,119
more referencing just group experiences

1004
00:45:55,220 --> 00:45:53,770
but on an individual basis like you can

1005
00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:55,230
do this a number of ways

1006
00:45:58,700 --> 00:45:57,310
Stanislav Grof has done a lot of good

1007
00:46:00,990 --> 00:45:58,710
work with the holotropic breathwork

1008
00:46:05,339 --> 00:46:01,000
which is just kind of an expansion of

1009
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:05,349
like hot hatha yoga and prayer

1010
00:46:09,839 --> 00:46:07,630
meditation there's dancing there's a lot

1011
00:46:11,490 --> 00:46:09,849
of different ways to do this to that end

1012
00:46:14,460 --> 00:46:11,500
I have one more clip that I wanted to

1013
00:46:17,310 --> 00:46:14,470
play for us and it's from from former

1014
00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:17,320
Harvard University professor and former

1015
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:20,820
colleague of probably the most famous

1016
00:46:26,460 --> 00:46:23,740
founder or mover in the psychedelic

1017
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:26,470
movement dr. Timothy Leary and that

1018
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:29,920
would be dr. Richard Alpert better known

1019
00:46:37,230 --> 00:46:33,760
as Ram Dass well so let me play for

1020
00:46:42,290 --> 00:46:37,240
folks this clip from Ram Dass about his

1021
00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:42,300
experience in introducing LSD to his

1022
00:46:49,530 --> 00:46:46,390
spiritual master neem Karoli Baba who is

1023
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:49,540
this barefoot sage that he meets in

1024
00:46:55,450 --> 00:46:53,170
India and immediately feels is the

1025
00:46:59,620 --> 00:46:55,460
source of his spiritual guide he

1026
00:47:01,450 --> 00:46:59,630
is his everything and somebody who many

1027
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:01,460
thousands or hundreds of thousands of

1028
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:03,760
people have identified as being this

1029
00:47:09,010 --> 00:47:07,280
significant spiritual saintly kind of

1030
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:09,020
figure that is neem karoli baba

1031
00:47:16,090 --> 00:47:11,810
so here Ram Dass is talking about giving

1032
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:16,100
LSD to neem karoli baba here goes and I

1033
00:47:19,780 --> 00:47:17,270
think this is gonna be pretty

1034
00:47:22,750 --> 00:47:19,790
interesting you know and nothing happens

1035
00:47:24,940 --> 00:47:22,760
at all nothing so I go back to the

1036
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:24,950
states and I tell everybody this guy

1037
00:47:29,470 --> 00:47:27,290
took 900 micrograms and nothing happened

1038
00:47:32,260 --> 00:47:29,480
because I mean this is our medicine I'm

1039
00:47:33,820 --> 00:47:32,270
impressed you know but I'm in the back

1040
00:47:35,770 --> 00:47:33,830
of my mind is the gnawing question do

1041
00:47:38,620 --> 00:47:35,780
you suppose he really swallowed it maybe

1042
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:38,630
he veiled my mind and threw it over his

1043
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:41,050
shoulder or something like that you know

1044
00:47:46,330 --> 00:47:43,370
but I don't know so I come back to India

1045
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:46,340
two years later and I find him after

1046
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:49,010
about six months and he says to me first

1047
00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:51,290
time I come up to him he says did you

1048
00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:53,030
give me some medicine last time you were

1049
00:48:00,100 --> 00:47:55,910
in India he said yeah he said did I take

1050
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:00,110
it I said I think so he said what

1051
00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:03,530
happened I said nothing hmm got any more

1052
00:48:10,330 --> 00:48:06,350
of that medicine so I said yeah so I

1053
00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:10,340
brought out and I had five pills 300

1054
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:14,900
each and one of them was broken he

1055
00:48:20,350 --> 00:48:16,370
wouldn't take the broken one he took the

1056
00:48:24,940 --> 00:48:20,360
four others and he took each one and he

1057
00:48:31,210 --> 00:48:24,950
stuck at our tongue and he made

1058
00:48:33,550 --> 00:48:31,220
absolutely sure that I saw that he that

1059
00:48:35,260 --> 00:48:33,560
he took it all in then he said can I

1060
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:35,270
have water and I said yeah honey

1061
00:48:39,790 --> 00:48:37,250
got him too hot a call I said doesn't

1062
00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:39,800
matter so he called for water and he

1063
00:48:42,670 --> 00:48:40,580
drank some water

1064
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:42,680
he said will it make me puggle or will

1065
00:48:47,970 --> 00:48:45,650
it make me crazy I said probably and at

1066
00:48:50,350 --> 00:48:47,980
one point he went under his blanket and

1067
00:48:53,710 --> 00:48:50,360
then he came back down looking

1068
00:48:56,860 --> 00:48:53,720
absolutely mad like and I thought what

1069
00:48:58,600 --> 00:48:56,870
have I done to this portal he doesn't

1070
00:48:59,740 --> 00:48:58,610
understand the power of our medicine

1071
00:49:01,390 --> 00:48:59,750
that he probably did throw it all

1072
00:49:04,060 --> 00:49:01,400
refilled or less I mean I've trapped him

1073
00:49:06,340 --> 00:49:04,070
into taking it oh my god how can I live

1074
00:49:07,780 --> 00:49:06,350
with this and all and then when he had

1075
00:49:11,620 --> 00:49:07,790
me totally paranoid

1076
00:49:13,780 --> 00:49:11,630
he laughed in glee and nothing happened

1077
00:49:17,050 --> 00:49:13,790
and then he said these were known about

1078
00:49:19,390 --> 00:49:17,060
thousands of years ago he said in the in

1079
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:19,400
the in the Indus Valley in the Hula

1080
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:21,680
Valley he said but he said most of

1081
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:23,510
that's been forgotten now Yogi's don't

1082
00:49:28,420 --> 00:49:25,490
do the preparations for this kind of

1083
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:28,430
experience anymore they did fasting and

1084
00:49:35,290 --> 00:49:33,530
they did things before this and so will

1085
00:49:38,740 --> 00:49:35,300
let Ram Dass kind of fade out there

1086
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:38,750
there's a lot to pull apart there that I

1087
00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:41,090
think relates to this discussion we want

1088
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:44,630
to have on deep spirituality first and

1089
00:49:49,420 --> 00:49:46,310
this is a point that's easy to gloss

1090
00:49:52,990 --> 00:49:49,430
over is we're talking about a Tsai

1091
00:49:55,630 --> 00:49:53,000
effect here if you will that is way

1092
00:49:58,420 --> 00:49:55,640
beyond what we accept and that is this

1093
00:50:01,870 --> 00:49:58,430
reading of the mind right so his guru

1094
00:50:04,060 --> 00:50:01,880
neem karoli baba is reading his mind and

1095
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:04,070
knows that he has had this kind of

1096
00:50:10,180 --> 00:50:06,770
question about this substance so already

1097
00:50:13,210 --> 00:50:10,190
were kind of moon shot out of the kind

1098
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:13,220
of ordinary experience and then to

1099
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:15,650
obviously the point of the story as it

1100
00:50:21,610 --> 00:50:18,650
relates to psychedelics is these

1101
00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:21,620
psychedelics don't affect him because

1102
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:24,800
his we're to assume that's implied his

1103
00:50:32,050 --> 00:50:28,280
consciousness is developed in a way that

1104
00:50:36,030 --> 00:50:32,060
allows him to choose what realm he moves

1105
00:50:39,310 --> 00:50:36,040
into and out of and how that all works

1106
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:39,320
again it gets to you know what we're

1107
00:50:43,330 --> 00:50:41,510
talking about Cody in terms of what is

1108
00:50:46,690 --> 00:50:43,340
really going on and what is this

1109
00:50:48,910 --> 00:50:46,700
experimentation really all about and

1110
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:48,920
then thirdly he you know he kind of says

1111
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:50,330
very matter-of-factly yeah well their

1112
00:50:54,430 --> 00:50:52,160
medicine and they used to be around and

1113
00:50:57,310 --> 00:50:54,440
we forgot how to use it and it can still

1114
00:51:00,340 --> 00:50:57,320
be useful but I just think this is a

1115
00:51:03,850 --> 00:51:00,350
clip that launches us into this

1116
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:03,860
discussion and so many angles about what

1117
00:51:09,490 --> 00:51:06,530
is the deep spirituality of these

1118
00:51:11,980 --> 00:51:09,500
substances so with that let me pull you

1119
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:11,990
in and see what do you take out of that

1120
00:51:19,870 --> 00:51:15,650
I I think you're correct or I agree with

1121
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:19,880
you in your reading that the Maharaja

1122
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:20,850
was a

1123
00:51:28,220 --> 00:51:23,670
an advanced being or he trained his mind

1124
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:28,230
how everyone explained it he had his

1125
00:51:35,150 --> 00:51:31,680
mind just was able to flow in and out of

1126
00:51:36,550 --> 00:51:35,160
states of reality that we other people

1127
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:36,560
we hardcases

1128
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:40,970
do not normally get to experience or see

1129
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:43,770
there's a I can't remember his name at

1130
00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:45,210
the moment there's a visionary artist

1131
00:51:53,060 --> 00:51:50,190
who has a tumor on his pineal gland and

1132
00:51:57,830 --> 00:51:53,070
his art is stunning it's it looks like

1133
00:52:00,980 --> 00:51:57,840
the DMT experience so I think there are

1134
00:52:04,850 --> 00:52:00,990
people that like on the natch can can

1135
00:52:08,330 --> 00:52:04,860
get get to these spaces and these spaces

1136
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:08,340
when I say that this is very nuanced it

1137
00:52:12,590 --> 00:52:10,350
seems like different drugs can take you

1138
00:52:14,570 --> 00:52:12,600
to different places different intent

1139
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:14,580
different meditation different like

1140
00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:17,010
there's so many variables to this it's

1141
00:52:21,140 --> 00:52:19,470
we're and we've only scratched the

1142
00:52:23,770 --> 00:52:21,150
surface research-wise it's really hard

1143
00:52:26,210 --> 00:52:23,780
to nail down how any of this works but

1144
00:52:27,740 --> 00:52:26,220
like with neem Karoli Baba I think it

1145
00:52:31,130 --> 00:52:27,750
the most interesting thing is that it

1146
00:52:32,570 --> 00:52:31,140
didn't work on him and I personally have

1147
00:52:33,980 --> 00:52:32,580
never seen anybody that could take

1148
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:33,990
twelve hundred micrograms and be

1149
00:52:43,130 --> 00:52:40,650
unaffected but I think the the

1150
00:52:45,530 --> 00:52:43,140
interesting thing for me and for people

1151
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:45,540
that maybe are first hearing about this

1152
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:48,450
is for those of us who aren't neem

1153
00:52:52,910 --> 00:52:50,730
Karoli Baba for those of us who are

1154
00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:52,920
maybe a bit more hard-headed or

1155
00:53:00,350 --> 00:52:55,710
have not expanded our consciousness or

1156
00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:00,360
are not as advanced as him we can use

1157
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:02,760
these chemicals to maybe get a glimpse

1158
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:07,920
at that side of things or how maybe he

1159
00:53:13,610 --> 00:53:09,900
perceives reality all the time what

1160
00:53:17,630 --> 00:53:13,620
about that rather famous quote from Alan

1161
00:53:19,580 --> 00:53:17,640
Watts another psychonaut who had this to

1162
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:19,590
say about psychedelic experience I love

1163
00:53:23,170 --> 00:53:22,530
this when you get the message hang up

1164
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:23,180
the phone

1165
00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:26,490
that's what kind of connects me to the

1166
00:53:34,490 --> 00:53:29,750
neem Karoli Baba thing what do you think

1167
00:53:34,820 --> 00:53:34,500
Alan Watts meant and how does that kind

1168
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:34,830
of

1169
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:37,290
form you or inform this experience for

1170
00:53:44,780 --> 00:53:41,160
you personally I take that that's that

1171
00:53:47,090 --> 00:53:44,790
quote is highlighting an integration I

1172
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:47,100
think a lot of the times when you have a

1173
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:48,810
really profound experience it takes a

1174
00:53:52,730 --> 00:53:50,850
long time to just pull it apart and

1175
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:52,740
dissect it and what the hell does this

1176
00:53:58,220 --> 00:53:54,480
all mean

1177
00:53:59,600 --> 00:53:58,230
I think after my first LSD experience I

1178
00:54:03,410 --> 00:53:59,610
think it was over a year before I did it

1179
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:03,420
again just because it was so it took me

1180
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:08,610
a long time to pull that apart a big

1181
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:10,410
problem I see right now with the

1182
00:54:15,350 --> 00:54:12,960
psychedelic community and not to cast

1183
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:15,360
any major judgments but I think people

1184
00:54:20,090 --> 00:54:17,970
use tend to use these substances a

1185
00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:20,100
little too often and don't take time to

1186
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:23,880
hang up the phone like you said I'm sure

1187
00:54:29,630 --> 00:54:26,160
Alan Watts picked up the phone from time

1188
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:29,640
to time but you don't need to be on the

1189
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:31,850
line the whole time I think is his point

1190
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:35,970
nice Cody tell folks more about what's

1191
00:54:41,650 --> 00:54:38,520
going on at silly Rob its podcast and

1192
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:41,660
the other stuff that's going on for you

1193
00:54:47,150 --> 00:54:44,130
we're still evolving we're still pretty

1194
00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:47,160
new like you said I kind of the first

1195
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:49,710
few episodes I just started putting out

1196
00:54:53,690 --> 00:54:51,090
just to get the good thing going because

1197
00:54:57,710 --> 00:54:53,700
it's it's kind of a beast to just get it

1198
00:55:01,460 --> 00:54:57,720
rolling so we started out with

1199
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:01,470
interviews I've been studying this for

1200
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:03,930
five or six years now my wife's been

1201
00:55:10,810 --> 00:55:08,970
studying it for about as long and so

1202
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:10,820
we've started to piece together little

1203
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:14,190
kind of info segments and with the the

1204
00:55:20,420 --> 00:55:17,990
interviews but largely people will find

1205
00:55:23,620 --> 00:55:20,430
authors in the field we kind of give him

1206
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:23,630
a platform to talk about their book and

1207
00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:26,070
what they're working on and then maybe

1208
00:55:32,540 --> 00:55:28,590
we'll do a we usually do a follow-up or

1209
00:55:37,070 --> 00:55:32,550
a complementary segment that has to do

1210
00:55:40,010 --> 00:55:37,080
with a tangential field like with Jerry

1211
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:40,020
Brown was recently on our podcast I know

1212
00:55:42,770 --> 00:55:42,210
he was he was on a skeptical a little

1213
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:42,780
while ago

1214
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:45,930
I did a follow-up segment on Don Allegro

1215
00:55:48,860 --> 00:55:46,650
and

1216
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:48,870
the birth of this theory is Jesus as a

1217
00:55:57,170 --> 00:55:53,250
mushroom so we're we hit a lot of

1218
00:56:00,050 --> 00:55:57,180
different fields we're trying to bring a

1219
00:56:04,340 --> 00:56:00,060
more nuanced discussion to this topic

1220
00:56:05,450 --> 00:56:04,350
and we have a lot of new exciting stuff

1221
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:05,460
coming up we're gonna have some

1222
00:56:10,220 --> 00:56:07,290
exclusive patreon content coming out

1223
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:10,230
soon that's just kind of breakdown of

1224
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:13,050
research papers and what not so that

1225
00:56:24,650 --> 00:56:19,820
we're both we're both kind of writing

1226
00:56:30,170 --> 00:56:24,660
books on tangential topics it's it's a

1227
00:56:31,580 --> 00:56:30,180
very broad spectrum field but the paper

1228
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:31,590
you mentioned that I wrote with Bryce

1229
00:56:36,140 --> 00:56:33,570
blank and ago we're in the process of

1230
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:36,150
expanding that into a book or a set of

1231
00:56:43,220 --> 00:56:40,400
books and that again is on the Mormonism

1232
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:43,230
psychedelic entheogen connection with

1233
00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:46,140
Joseph Smith which you teed up a little

1234
00:56:50,810 --> 00:56:48,180
bit and sounds very intriguing I know a

1235
00:56:52,910 --> 00:56:50,820
lot of people find that interesting yeah

1236
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:52,920
we did a couple episodes on it actually

1237
00:56:57,500 --> 00:56:55,650
if you go on silly rabbits the episodes

1238
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:57,510
with Bryce blank and I go we essentially

1239
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,240
just read our our research paper and

1240
00:57:05,690 --> 00:57:02,400
kind of go off on little digressions to

1241
00:57:07,340 --> 00:57:05,700
explain some of the finer points so if

1242
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:07,350
you you don't have the time to read it

1243
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:09,720
you can stop by and check those episodes

1244
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:11,850
out I think that's number 10 and 11

1245
00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:14,280
great great so again our guest has been

1246
00:57:19,730 --> 00:57:16,920
Cody Anna Kony from silly rabbits

1247
00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:19,740
podcast that spelled with a pee and then

1248
00:57:25,250 --> 00:57:23,430
silly silly rabbits for the you get it -

1249
00:57:27,710 --> 00:57:25,260
anyways I'll have a link to it in the

1250
00:57:30,410 --> 00:57:27,720
show and Cody it's been great having you

1251
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:30,420
on thanks again for joining me it's been

1252
00:57:35,930 --> 00:57:32,250
a pleasure thanks for taking the time

1253
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:35,940
and give me a platform to rant about

1254
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:40,170
psychedelics thanks again to Cody

1255
00:57:44,330 --> 00:57:42,150
Taccone for joining me today on skeptic

1256
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:44,340
oh I guess the one question I'd have to

1257
00:57:48,490 --> 00:57:46,650
tee up from this interview is what do

1258
00:57:51,650 --> 00:57:48,500
you make of the renewed interest in

1259
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:51,660
entheogens it's not all that new but it

1260
00:57:55,610 --> 00:57:53,700
certainly has been going on for a few

1261
00:57:57,140 --> 00:57:55,620
years and it seems to be gaining more

1262
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:57,150
and more momentum

1263
00:58:03,769 --> 00:58:00,720
is it good are there some powerful deep

1264
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:03,779
spiritual implications and consciousness

1265
00:58:10,940 --> 00:58:09,359
advancing implications or not let me

1266
00:58:15,019 --> 00:58:10,950
hear your thoughts of course place to do

1267
00:58:17,029 --> 00:58:15,029
it is at skeptic Oh calm ske PTI kayo

1268
00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:17,039
where you can catch up on all the

1269
00:58:21,710 --> 00:58:20,190
previous episodes of skeptic oh and from

1270
00:58:23,390 --> 00:58:21,720
there you can also jump on over to the

1271
00:58:26,299 --> 00:58:23,400
skeptical forum and let us hear from you

1272
00:58:28,670 --> 00:58:26,309
there I have some interesting shows

1273
00:58:31,250 --> 00:58:28,680
coming up I do hope you stay with me for

1274
00:58:33,870 --> 00:58:31,260
all of that until next time take care